Champion Story 53 | Farhan Thawar
Recorded on March 22, 2019
Biography: Farhan Thawar is VP, Engineering at Shopify via the acquisition of Helpful.com where he was Co-Founder and CTO. Previously he was the CTO, Mobile at Pivotal and VP, Engineering at Pivotal Labs via the acquisition of Xtreme Labs. Farhan is an avid investor and advisor to startups in Toronto and San Francisco, including being a mentor at yCombinator and First Round Capital.
Previously, Farhan held senior technical positions at Achievers, Microsoft, and Trilogy. Farhan completed his MBA in Financial Engineering at Rotman and Computer Science/EE at Waterloo.
When I started collecting stories, I was asking around, "Who do you think in the community is a really great ally? Who do you think in the community has supported you as an entrepreneur?" You were one of the people who got mentioned several times.
Amazing. I don't feel like a founder, even though I started and sold my company. The word entrepreneur and founder are a weird term for me. I feel like somebody who likes to go and solve problems.
Anyway. My own struggle. Weird label for me...
Understandable. One of the things that I've wanted to do is highlight the human side to people in our industry. We tend to celebrate things like, "Hey, you got the series A! Hey, you got the IPO!" But I want to celebrate the human side of people as well.
How would you describe yourself?
There are so many amazing people doing so many different things, whether it's employee number one who's not the founder or employee number 5000. Everybody's doing something amazing to contribute to the community. I feel like it's weird to focus on founders and for some reason don't feel like I want to be part of an exclusive group.
I want to be part of everybody. There are some events that are like, "Oh, founders only." I don't like that. Why? What's so special? There's nothing special about me. Pretty sure.
There are some labels I like. People say I talk fast. That's a label that I can't get away from. But the founder and entrepreneur one I feel like it's exclusionary and some people do use it that way. They're like, "Oh, you never started a company."
A lot of people approach it and they're “founders,” they're investors. What stood out to me is that regardless of the label that people have had, mental health was a thing we all bonded on.
When you look back at your journey, what has surprised you the most?
One thing I found surprising is how much in most companies we overvalue experience. We say, "I need a senior with 10 years of experience or 15 years of experience," and what I've found is amazing stuff comes from young people. There was a famous article I think that said in any meeting you should have 30% of the people under 30." Which I think is actually too old. It should be under 25.
Because the world is changing so much that I find that if you approach everything as a curious person with the notion, "The more I learn, the more I learn I don't know anything and the more I can listen." It's usually the young junior folks who are starting in their careers that have an idea of how the world should work, and we hopefully don't bring them into the workforce and mold them and say, "Well, you're gonna work this way, 'cause that's how we do things around here."
The part that surprises me is that more people don't see it, meaning I'm constantly surprised by the things I learn from the folks who are just starting their careers. The other people I see or meet with, they're not telling me the same thing. I'm not saying I'm some crazy figure that can see the potential in people and pull them up from the bottom. I'm saying I rarely hear that people are learning from folks early in their careers. So, one of the mysteries, and hopefully I try to foster the potential of those folks and give them a running start on things. Maybe I'm over-emphasizing young people, but it could be anybody.
It could be somebody who's farther in their career but they're trying something new. You start at some junior level, but if you have potential, I hope those people see that the potential is there and that they can take on bigger and bigger challenges quickly. That's something I don't see often; people giving people opportunities early and quickly.
This philosophy around being curious about people and really listening to them, where does that come from?
One, I don't think I'm a good listener, I think I'm working on it like everybody. I tend to still cut people off, so I'm working on that. But I think that I've been lucky that I've been in situations where people have given me opportunities like that.
I was a 14-year-old kid working for a small company that built these giant testers for Ford. When a tester would break down, I'd walk into this factory with all these adults and they're like, "Who is this kid?" I'd come in and I'd open this giant unit, it was like the size of a fridge, and I would open it in the back. I would bring out my tools and I would fix the thing and then leave, and they're like, "This kid just came in and fixed the thing."
But nobody came with me. It wasn't like my boss came with me. He just said, "Go over to the factory. Go talk to this person and just do it." So, I've always had opportunities like that. Because you learn when you get the opportunity and you learn probably more if it doesn't go well. Sometimes I'd go in there and be like, "I don't know how to fix this." But then I learned and I came back.
I would listen to people, see what they wanted to do and that ended up being how I work with people. The famous Steve Jobs quote, “You don't hire smart people to tell them what to do. You hire smart people so they tell you what to do.”
I try to listen. Many times people will say, "What do you think we should do?" and I'll say, "What do you think we should do?" I'm happy to decide. I'm happy to help people make the decision saying, "Oh, you don't know which way to go? Let's just pick A and if A works, cool. If it doesn't work, we're gonna pick B next.”
People say, "You're really good at making decisions." and I'm like, "Yeah, just quickly making a decision is not a big skill. It's knowing when it's a one-way door versus a two-way door. We can come back. It's not a big deal." I don't know if that answers your question, but that is how I grew up in my working life. That's hopefully how I'm leading things here.
I love how there's so much creativity in that. I know that I can build my own path, I know that I can be creative. I'm choosing to be creative about how I want to do things.
That's another label I don't like.
Creative. I don't think I'm that creative person. People always say, "Oh, you're good at solving problems," but I never felt I was creative. That's a label people use to exclude and not in a bad way. Not like if somebody's said, "You're not creative" that's an insult to me or anything. But I feel like there's a class of deductive and inductive thinkers. Deductive thinkers are ones that can look at a series of events and then extrapolate and say, "Oh, mobile phone usage is going up every year. It'll probably go up again next year."
Versus inductive thinkers who kind of take all the information and make a leap to something completely different, like, "Wow, mobile phone usage is going up this year. We're gonna have autonomous driving." I've always found myself to be deductive. I'm really good at deductive. But I don't see myself as somebody who looks at all the information and goes, "Oh, this thing is gonna happen 10 years from now because of this information." I look at that as creativity.
Maybe that's the same reason I don't think I'm a founder. I'm not the unreasonable person who bangs up against the world and says, "Why doesn't this exist? Why is it not here yet?" Instead, I'm the person who can get you there like one percent a week.
As somebody who doesn't care about labels, where does that part come from, or how have you cultivated it?
I wrote this blog post, like "Why looking stupid is my superpower". What I found is two things; one is I'll try anything. I actually have this funny quote. "I'll try anything twice." Because the first time you're like, "Who knows?" But the second time is the real try.
In the blog post, my wife got me for Father's Day, a day at the golf course. "Hey, go golfing for the day with a friend of yours." and she knows I don't golf. Golfing is not one of those things where you can go play a soccer game, where you have a base level of skill. If you don't have any skill in golf, you can't do anything. There are lots of experienced folks and they wait for you. It's almost like being at a shop and people are waiting in line and you’re stuck at the machine.
She knew that I didn't care and I went there. My friend does play golf and I don't even know how to swing the golf club. I went out there and had a blast. I mostly did not hit the ball. I was just hitting the grass and we were talking, hanging out. I don't care that I was looking dumb. I don't care that people are behind us going, "Hurry up." I'm having fun. I feel like maybe as a kid that I just bumped up against a lot of things and didn't care, maybe I built up that resilience over time.
If somebody said to me, "That's a dumb idea. That's stupid. Why'd you do that?" I'm like, "I don't know. Why did I do that?" I'll think back and be like, "Oh, I did this" and I don't have to say, "I thought it was a good idea. I learned something." I don't have a problem saying that, even if somebody says, "That's a really dumb idea." I'll be like, "Okay, I thought it was a good idea."
What did I lose? I didn't really lose anything. I tried it. There's also another quote that I use, "It's better to regret the things you do than the things you don't."
Just do it and then be like, "Oh, I shouldn't have done it," versus, "I should've tried. I should've done it." "I should've just tried, I should've talked to that person who came off the stage to get some advice". Or dating, "I should've talked to that girl". Whatever it is and people that you regret; the woulda-shoulda-coulda. I'd rather do it and be like, "Oh, that was a dumb thing to do, but I did it." That combined with the, "I just don't care" and I truly don't know if there was a single event, but over time I realized that.
It probably was like high school, where I was very shy, introverted until like 16. I basically said, "Screw it." I specifically said, "I'm changing my personality." I became ambivert or pretend extrovert. I saw what you have to do like popular kids would make fun of you whatever, and I was just like, "Who cares?" Somebody would say something, like "That's not true" or is true. Or "You're short." I'm like, "Okay." What do you want me to do? Nothing. So, I just kept going with it. . Over time I said "It doesn't matter anymore." But I don't think it was anything traumatic. It was just over time.
I think the big thing is I just want to try stuff. I learn when I try and don't necessarily want to try the way other people have tried. If it works, cool. If it doesn't work, I'll try your way.
There are these things that are more vulnerable for people. That's the part where people are now voicing to me; that's the part where they're trying to figure out how to share their truth.
It's ups and downs. In those moments where you're experiencing a down or a low, what has helped you get through that?
There are a few different ways to think about it. People are different. There are gonna be people who need to go out and share publicly, there are people who are gonna share with a few friends and that's the way that they need. I do believe, and again, I’m not a mental health professional, there are some people who just want to do it themselves and they need to go inside and be, "You know what, I know what's best for me and what I need is three days off and a book."
There are different types of folks and that’s what changed. Now we have better avenues to address these things, we have better language. We have better training from folks to say, "Oh, you know what? I've seen this work for somebody else. Why don't you try that."
The number one thing is you have to figure out what's going to work. A good example is I know when I have a stomach ache, I know I have the exact same Campbell's or Lipton soup. I need that soup. That's the one that helps me calm my stomach. But for someone else, it might be, "I need to eat bread and butter." But you have to figure out what that is. The hard part is figuring out what works for you, and I know for some people it's, "I have a founder support group. That's the thing that works for me."
I'm not a big sharer of stuff, but people share with me and I think part of me is to be needed that way. I like when people call me and say, "Hey, can I talk to you? I really need your advice on something." That's for me the way to boost my energy.
The other thing for me is internally. I'll say, "Try again." I heard this from my son's soccer coach. They were like, "When your kid runs up to the net and takes a shot and they miss, all you want is them to try again."
So for me in my mind, I've tried something you're like, "Oh, how am I gonna close this raise?" Or "Is this gonna happen? Is that gonna happen?" Just go, "Try again. Try again." Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't.
No matter what happens, there's a way and you just haven't found it yet. How do I solve the problem, but the other way is how do I get my mind into the right state. Is it I need three days off and a book, is it I have to go out with some friends, is it I have to watch Netflix and chill, is it I need to change jobs, is it I have to talk to my partner, is it I need counseling. That's the problem that a lot of folks haven't spent time on; to figure out the thing that they need.
I don't think it's one-stop shopping. I don't think it's like everybody needs to share or everybody needs to have counseling. You have to figure out what works for you. But what's valuable is hearing all the things that people are doing.
Everybody's different and some tools work for some people, maybe a majority of people, and there are tools that work for other people. If you don't explore all the tools and you think your only tool is, "I'm just gonna stay by myself," and it's not working, look for another tool. I think that's the stigma.
Before your only tool was, "Just suck it up. Walk it off." That was your only tool. Now there are so many tools. Founder groups, public sharing, counseling, reading books about the topic, connecting with people online. There are many tools and you owe it to yourself to figure out what tool works for you. For me, it's to be available for people to call me.
Thank you for doing that. I shared this with you earlier, but I would classify myself as a survivor, because I've had personal experiences around depression. One of the hardest things that I've had to deal with was this feeling that I was only ready to speak with people when I was already better.
There had to be a point where I had to give myself permission to finally try and talk to people, even if it was like a friend who didn't have their own personal experience on mental health. People wanted to be there for me and I wasn't communicating.
The trick in these mentor/mentee relationships is that I feel like I get more. They're like, "Oh, thanks for meeting with me." I'm like, "You don't think I'm learning? I'm learning something from these interactions." So, it's not like, they're ever one way. These are not one-way relationships.
For you as an ally, what is the message that you would like people to know?
The first thing is things are not what they seem. I know that because I'll talk to people and I've talked to lots of successful people. I remember the story where I met with somebody who just sold their company for over a billion dollars. I said, "Wow, that's amazing. How do you feel?" He was like, "I'm so scared." I'm like, "Why?" He goes, "'Everybody's watching me see what I do next. I'm so scared."
The outward persona of that person on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook is like, "Baller. Just sold my company. Getting on a private jet." Versus the reality is that he was just being open and honest with me, I didn't know him. I was very surprised and he just said, "Oh yeah, I'm really scared. I don't know what to do now."
Two is to figure out what tool works for you. This happened to me recently where somebody was hungover and they're like, "Oh my god, I don't know what to eat when I'm hungover." I'm like, "Don't you ever go drinking? You should know your tools." I introduced them to the plain McDonald's hamburger, which is useful for when you're hungover, but that's a tool.
You gotta figure out your tool. Is it talking to people? Is it not talking to people? Is it being at your house? Is it to be in public? You can work with a mental health professional also to help figure these things out. But if you don't have those tools and you didn't know there's more than one way, you're not gonna be able to come out of it the way you want to.
The third one is there's no judging. When somebody calls me and wants to talk about a career or whatever, I don't want them to turn around and say, "Hey everybody, so-and-so's leaving their job or getting depressed." That's not how life works. Instead, it's just for me. If I tell them, "Hey, do you want to talk to somebody else?" If they're open to it, I'll introduce them to somebody. But otherwise, it's not for me to judge and/or share and that's the number one thing an ally can do, is just be there. I try in my own way, try to do that as much as I can.
Yeah. I love that. Thank you for doing that, for leading by example.
I hope with this initiative, that more people see that mental health doesn't have to be done in private circles, but it can include everybody. Everybody can support in their own way, whether it's personal experience or because you just deeply care and get so much value mentoring people, helping people, and being there for them.
Amazing to chat with you.